271 replies to this topic

[Snuglninja]

Sorry but its true. The closest thing pgi has ever had to balance and would stop a lot of this ppc assault fest. Doesn't have to be exactly what it was before and maybe only used for players in cw/merc units but what we got now is a **** poor console game with no sim feel or consequences for cheese builds or smart play.

[Sybreed]

yup, and the medium player in me was really happy with this. Man I made a lot of money with those mediums.

[Davers]

I don't miss it.

1. It hurt new players much more than veterans.
2. it rewarded afk farming and other exploits.
3. It punished good players who spread damage by torso twisting and allowed players to grief each other by picking a damaged mech apart.
4. It hurt solo players much more than pre-made groups.
5. Balancing by economy is a bad idea. It creates the idea that 'It is ok for x weapon to be OP, it costs more.' Isn't actually balancing the weapons a better idea?
6.Forcing people to play mechs they don't like in order to afford the repairs on the ones they do is bad. It leads to the idea that 'Play lights or mediums to make money' instead of lights and mediums actually having a viable role in the game.

Smart play IS rewarded. It's just that we lack the tools to share our brilliant insight and strategies during a match with complete strangers.

[Stonefalcon]

I made a thread a while back discussing this which attracted over 10 pages of responses and quite an indepth poll.

http://mwomercs.com/...ould-it-return/

Basically it showed people want the return of repair and rearm in one capacity or another with about 20% of the population saying no to the repair.

MWO is supposed to be a simulation game based off other Mechwarrior titles and that was how the game was marketed to everybody in Closed beta who purchased a founders pack. Right now all we have is World of Tanks in it's most basic form with mechs.

Repair and rearm was what this game needed to allow Clan and IS tech to work together on the battlefield. Clan tech is so expensive to repair there would have been few people actually using it.

Edited by Stonefalcon, 15 May 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I miss it too..the immersion was cool

[Escef]

The only good thing I can say about it was that it made lights and a few mediums easier to hit, because XL engines were expensive to purchase and repair. The only big mechs it will seriously hurt are dual Gauss/AC20 builds and maybe 4X Dakkaphracts.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Davers, on 15 May 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

1. It hurt new players much more than veterans.

Elo

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2. it rewarded afk farming and other exploits.

Cadet bonus, removal of rewards for non-participation

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3. It punished good players who spread damage by torso twisting and allowed players to grief each other by picking a damaged mech apart.

If you torso twist, you get to live longer, you increase your chances of winning and getting that sweet victory bonus. Why shouldn't you pay for the armor and internals you trashed to save your engine?

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4. It hurt solo players much more than pre-made groups.

Elo.

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5. Balancing by economy is a bad idea. It creates the idea that 'It is ok for x weapon to be OP, it costs more.' Isn't actually balancing the weapons a better idea?

Not necessarily.

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6.Forcing people to play mechs they don't like in order to afford the repairs on the ones they do is bad. It leads to the idea that 'Play lights or mediums to make money' instead of lights and mediums actually having a viable role in the game.

And the current role of lights and mediums as a handicap for their team is better?

[Squirtbox]

Davers, on 15 May 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

-words-

I wasn't a TT Player and I'm not sure of all the rules, but wasn't price one of the balancing factors in TT along with scarcity?

[Escef]

Squirtbox, on 15 May 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I wasn't a TT Player and I'm not sure of all the rules, but wasn't price one of the balancing factors in TT along with scarcity?

While price could be used as a balancing factor, it rarely worked well. Given that biggest price tag on any piece of mech equipment was the engine, all balancing by C-Bill cost did was discourage XL engines. Just as an example, compare the price of the base model of the Albatross with that of a Succession War era Thunderbolt. The Albatross carried slightly more fire power with the same armor and speed. The Albatross was 30 tons heavier, used an XL engine, and cost four times as much. For the price of a single Albatross you could field a lance of Thuds, a much more versatile and deadly option.

This is the reason why the Battle Value system was invented. Because trying to rate the machines by combat effectiveness was better than trying to balance by price. (The BV system, and the second version, BV2, could both be gamed and had flaws, but it was much better than C-Bills.)

Edited by Escef, 15 May 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Franchi]

I REALLY miss R&R.

[Livewyr]

Snuglninja, on 15 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Sorry but its true. The closest thing pgi has ever had to balance and would stop a lot of this ppc assault fest. Doesn't have to be exactly what it was before and maybe only used for players in cw/merc units but what we got now is a **** poor console game with no sim feel or consequences for cheese builds or smart play.

Not to burst your bubble (with evil intent).. but what would RnR do to stem the tide of PPCs?

Infinite Ammo.

If anything, it'd replace the usage of ballistic weapons with more PPCs.

[Asmudius Heng]

R&R should have a place in CW - but it just muddies the water for instant action games we have now.

[Tor6]

If you think that R&R would help with this you need to take off your rose-tinted glasses. R&R was horribly implemented and would do nothing to dissuade people from boating PPCs, a weapon which does not take ammo nor an XL to run.

[I am]

I agree OP, I miss them too. I wish they would go further. Bring back R&R, double mech costs in terms of C-Bills, make match C-Bill returns halved. make it rough to run without premium. They do want players to feel compelled to play with it right? I've never felt taht compulsion playing MWO, credits come in too fast to justify premium time.

While were at it lets make 4 mans 3 mans (or better yet 2 mans), and limit those who can bring more than the default amount to those with premium. WoT got away with it, and they have about 200,000 people playing, 27,000 ish on the U.S. Server alone.

Premium is supposed to be a reprive from the rough-ness of grinding, MWO grinding, has never been rough. You can get a DDC in a weekend without premium.

Note: I don't want R&R to dissuade certain loadouts, or try to shape player behavior. Other methods would/should be used to prevent exploitation, if it is occurring. I want the grind in MWO to be alot harder, because it is too dhamn easy. Plus, playing to repair a blown up mech adds to immersion imho.

Edited by I am, 16 May 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Sidekick]

RnR was one aspect a game like this desperately needs. It fields the aspect of ressource management and cost/risk/gain analysis. Since all that matters is the mech you field and the MM doesn´t balance by BV, the penalties for trashing a expensive machine kept the assaults in check. Offering more room for mechs with sub-optimized equipment.

[Liberator]

I am, on 15 May 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

I agree OP, I miss them too. I wish they would go further. Bring back R&R, double mech costs in terms of C-Bills, make match C-Bill returns halved. make it rough to run without premium. They do want players to feel compelled to play with it right? I've never felt taht compulsion playing MWO, credits come in too fast to justify premium time.

While were at it lets make 4 mans 3 mans (or better yet 2 mans), and limit those who can bring more than the default amount to those with premium. WoT got away with it, and they have about 200,000 people playing, 27,000 ish on the U.S. Server alone.

Premium is supposed to be a reprive from the rough-ness of grinding, MWO grinding, has never been rough. You can get a DDC in a weekend without premium.

Note: I don't want R&R to dissuade certain loadouts, or try to shape player behavior. Other methods would/should be used to prevent exploitation, if it is occurring. I want the grind in MWO to be alot harder, because it is too dhamn easy. Plus, playing to replair a blown up mech adds to immersion imho.

I hate the idea of paying to grind, and i hate having to buy premium, i much rather buy mechs with mc, than to GRIND in my free time, my time is worth more than that, i get credits playing the mech i like, as a side effect of having fun.

I have used mc on paint, as that is rad, and a few regular mechs that i did not have the time or drive to grind for, i use the credits from having fun in my mech to get gear. With premium i would be forced to play out my premium time, and when some friends come by or ask me out i would lose out on my premium time.

Making large teams only in premium mode sounds good, that is a real pay to win advantage... but let us wait with all the make it hardcore stuff until we are out of beta maybe.

[Fiona Marshe]

I miss R&R as well. Even though I would burn tons of LRM ammo, I still made money due to smart play and NOT DYING.

With no consequences for death, so many Open Beta newbies just charge in now to cause maximum damage for the c-bill rewards of doing so. Forget strategy, tactics or any sense of teamwork; its all about the damage caused.

[xengk]

The old R&R was quite harsh.
player on a streak of bad matches could end up with little to no money to repair their mechs and are forced to play in junker or run death trap trial mechs, which cause them to lost more matches.

If they do bring back R&R, the cost should only go toward fixing weapons and equipments. Chassis and armour get repair for free. House player probably get free ammo reload too, mercs and lone wolf will have to foot their own bill.

Here is my suggestion
http://mwomercs.com/...nt-destruction/

[Escef]

I'd have no problems with R&R if there was a "power down and concede" option. If you are the last man, know you can't win,and can't out run the rest of the opfor, it's kinda' crappy to be forced to get killed when you'd rather surrender. (It would probably cut down on cap wins when the last enemy team member goes into hiding.)

I've seen plenty of instances when the last friendly mech was a badly banged up heavy or assault, not near fast enough to go for a cap, out numbered 3-1 (or worse), out of ammo, last functioning weapon a medium laser or two... Why shouldn't he be able to concede? No, he has to get killed and pay for R&R and suck a hit on his KDR (I know taking a KDR hit is meaningless to some, and meaningful to others). If the price for concession was being denied the win/loss XP, it would also discourage farmers from abusing it. (Concede could maybe be, say, CTRL+C while powered down.)

[MustrumRidcully]

Snuglninja, on 15 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Sorry but its true. The closest thing pgi has ever had to balance and would stop a lot of this ppc assault fest. Doesn't have to be exactly what it was before and maybe only used for players in cw/merc units but what we got now is a **** poor console game with no sim feel or consequences for cheese builds or smart play.

I don't see how these high heat mechs are that much limited by repair cost. They certainly don't need to worry about rearm, and they are the most likely to inflict very little damage while getting solid kills on lighter enemies - that now have to pay the full repair cost. At least, on the plus side, there is not all that much armor damaged, which was one of the most costly things to repair, which made it financially unwise to avoid destruction by torso-twisting.

And since fast LIghts and Mediums can no longer benefit from lag shields, they'd likely die earlier and more often, making the XL repair cost prohibitive, making them even easier targets if people switch to Standard Engine.

R&R never worked to balance the game. it just made the succesful richer, and if a powerful item made you succesful, you would be able to compensate its cost.
Your best alternative was to exploit the system and trial suicide or do AFK farm.

It was never R&R that made lights or mediums interesting. It was probably mostly a combination of lag shields, and the abilty of a decent light-weight short range weapons that could compete with long range weapons like PPCs, Gauss and ER PPCs - the SRM. Now the decent light weight short range weapons remaining is the the Medium Laser, but without augmentation by a lower-heat to damage weapon option, most lights and mediums can't achieve their original damage potential, lacking either hard points or weight (for the extra sinks required) to compensate with more lasers.